“I’m the Problem, It’s Me”: Working with Difficult Coworkers and Admin with Guest Zach Matson

Rebecca
You are listening to episode number 71 of the secondary science simplified podcast. Welcome back for part two of my interview with Zack Matson. If you missed it last week, I shared the first half of my conversation with my very own high school chemistry teacher, Zach Matson. I had originally interviewed him on the podcast back in episode 35, to talk all things, advice for chemistry teachers and new science teachers. Because it was the most listened to episode of 2022. I wanted to bring him back to talk about his experience working with difficult parents, admin and co workers. We ended up talking for three hours because you all submitted so many great questions for him. So if you missed episode 70 from last week, go back and give it a listen because it covers the entire first part of our conversation, which is all about working with difficult parents. And he mentioned a few things about what it looks like to work alongside great admin there. Which then brings us into today’s episode. In the second half of our conversation, we transition to talking about working alongside difficult co workers, whether you have formal PLCs in your school or not. Additionally, he shares advice for working under difficult admin and we talked through some things you can ask about if you’re interviewing for a new position this spring, just to get a feel for the culture and admin creates at a school because it really is a game changer admin make such a big difference in the quality of life in your teaching job. It is a great piggyback lesson to to Episode 68, which was a few weeks back when we talked about supportive admin and how to get maybe not so supportive admin to actually support you. So if you haven’t listened to that episode, that’s when you go back and listen to as well. But as always, that made me laugh and he just challenged me to I have such a great time talking with him. So I hope this episode makes you laugh and it challenges you too. So without further ado, let’s dive into my interview with my very own chemistry teacher Zach Matson.

Zach
It’s mostly hyperbole and exaggerations. Don’t quote me in court. And then item number two, our Cliff’s Notes for this podcast. It isn’t an attack on you care less tell your brain to shut up? Yeah, yeah. We experience things through the lens of how our brain is feeling 100%. So first, have you ever had to co plan or work in a PLC with other teachers? And was that difficult? Were you difficult with someone else? Kind of how did that go? Well,

Rebecca
This is secondary science simplified a podcast for secondary science teachers who want to engage their students and simplify their lives. I’m Rebecca joiner from it’s not rocket science. As a high school science teacher turned curriculum writer, I am passionate about helping other science teachers love their jobs, serve their students, and do it all in only 40 hours a week. Are you ready to rock the time spent in your classroom and actually have a life outside of it? You are in the right place teacher friend. Let’s get to today’s episode.

Rebecca
So we’re back part two. Now we’re gonna talk about dif working with difficult co workers. And you may be the difficult co worker and also difficult admin versus good admin. How do you know when maybe even like when do you know if it’s time to go because of your admin to a different places? So let’s start with difficult coworkers.

Zach
All right. Hopefully they’re just getting off of listening to round one. But as a quick reminder, disclaimer, sometimes I offend people.

Zach
I feel attacked. I remember to I should ask my co workers how they deal. But Short answer, yes. So our school started PLCs professional learning communities in around 2007. I think. And obviously, no one was very into it. At that point in time. I will again, speak somewhat in hyperbole. I understand PLCs are important. All right. But that doesn’t mean I’m not going to trash talk the hell out of him as we go. And I think PLCs are especially important for new teachers. All right. And realistically, they are important for old teachers too, because it’ll keep you current and your look, give you new ideas and working outside your comfort zone is an important part of growth. Remember to do what I say not what I do. So short answer, yes, we’ve been part of it. And so what I would start with is what I was saying before, like your brain, the lens of how it’s feeling, so going into a PLC as an older teacher, for me, alright, and this may not be true for everybody, but it’s like when people suggest something new or they bring an activity. I kind of internalize that as like I’m, I’m inadequate. I’m not doing it the right way. If I’m a dinosaur, and then that kind of puts me on the defensive and makes me resentful of the PLC, and I should not feel that way. But again, that’s I think where that puts me. By the way, I need to like your input as we’re going about PLC. Do you have you’re at a smaller school? Do you have PLCs? Or no? Well,

Rebecca
not at the last school, I taught it. But the first my very first teaching job we did. So I was in like a PLC, there were five biology teachers, and the only thing we were required to do the same was all of our unit tests. But in South Carolina biology is like an end of course exam. So the more we could align, the more they wanted, because they want they care about the department results, you know, but the only thing we really had to do the same was the tests.

Zach
All right, well, so we’re gonna have to back and forth a little bit you as the open minded young teacher than me as me, and I’ll try and be objective, but in my heart of hearts, and it is wrong, I really resent PLCs. And the amount of time we have to put into him out of selfishness. Objectively, I will say it can be a very useful tool. But part of it is like when you’re forced to do something, you’re automatically resentful. So it depends on PLC size I didn’t mention. So we’ve got like five chemistry teachers. And it is a chemistry PLC. So we meet with the other chemistry teachers. And here is I think, how some other things in terms of like, how to make PLCs less painful item number one, set a time limit a hard time, yes. Okay. Otherwise, it may just turn into a bitch session. And people will be complaining and complaining or complaining other students or things get off tests. And that’s fine part of venting as necessary. But also, you don’t want every meeting to just have this negative tone of complaining. And that may be how people feel, but whatever. So time limit, you can’t waste time that way, and then set an agenda. So I don’t know. It’s hard for me to censor myself as we’re saying this, but like, we have to keep PLC minutes in a folder so that the admins can look at what we did, and blah, blah, blah. And I feel like a lot of that is like a lot of things in education, which is just going through the motions, meaning like we are doing the meaningful things by word. And it is difficult to convey those in writing, especially when there’s like a checklist of things that we’re supposed to like put in our minutes. Does that make sense? Right. So anyway, set a clear agenda set a time limit? What’s a good time limit? I don’t know. I’m just gonna declare 45 minutes. What do you think?

Rebecca
I think that’s great. Because then, yeah, I feel like an hour just feel so long.

Zach
Yes. Like our last podcast, where you’re like, Oh, gee, no, or watch?

Rebecca
No, I felt great about that. I’m wondering, I don’t care about the time, I’m wondering how the, you know, the babysitter having a roll out on me. But no, I think this setting is not

Zach
going to happen. We’ll do lightning round as needed. So, I don’t know, 45 minutes, how often do you think they should meet?

Rebecca
Holly depends, I felt like we were often meeting before a test to make edits to the existing tests that we had. And then we are meeting after a test. At some point, in order to look at the data. That’s one thing I do love about using shared tests is being able to look at my average versus someone else’s, and being like, Okay, well, you maybe what you’re doing is way better than what I was doing clearly, you know, and trying to troubleshoot there. And you know, a unit could be anything from four to eight weeks. So maybe every three weeks, it was kind of ending up being I’m not sure.

Zach
This may be the most useful discourse. Because number one, here’s what I hate looking at data and error, like you’re a scientist, and it’s like, maybe because I’m old, but it’s kind of like, I know what they’re going to do in advance, point wise and whatever. And, like, I don’t really need to look at that. And I know you’re like, Well, what a horrible educator you are. No, I could write out what the test average is going to be and what questions are gonna get wrong? And you’re like, well, if they’re gonna get them wrong, why don’t you address them, I do address them in class, and I tell them, hey, this is going to be on the test. So anyway, there is human nature, looking over data is beneficial, and I encourage people to do it. I personally don’t like that aspect of PLCs. I’m glad that you mentioned that. And I’m glad you like it.

Rebecca
I will like it’s a strong word. I don’t feel like I like it. But I did see the benefit of like, you know, we had our biochemical reactions unit in biology. And like, kids, were always doing the worst on it in everyone’s class. And finally, one of my co workers was like, what if we brought in food webs and trophic pyramids from ecology, which is the easiest unit of all time, and bring that really easy concept that’s very like macro and combine it with the micro stuff of biochem. So they can see the big picture. And also it kind of buffers their grade because it’s such an easy concept.

Zach
That’s a good idea. Like that

Rebecca
literally was a game changer and students did so much better. I feel like that was super helpful. The other thing that was helpful for our PLCs that worked well was like, because we weren’t necessarily required to do everything. It was more like share ideas. Take what you want, but we do In it, I think it’d be a lot harder if it was like You must do every single thing the same.

Zach
That is exactly what I put in my diatribe of responding to your questions, which is like, if you want to make every single person unhappy in there, then the PLC needs to be the 10 commandments of everything that is going to be done in the class at the same time. And if you don’t follow it to the letter, you’re going to hell, right, that just boils my blood thinking about that. And I know, like the district and it looks great on paper, everybody, every school on the same topic, at the same time teaching it the same way. That looks great on paper, because it’s like infinite, equitability, right, right? However, clearly, those district people don’t understand entropy, like, you can force improbable states on a system, but it requires exponentially more energy, the larger the system. And also, it’s completely contrary to like how teaching should go which is personalized to the classroom. So if you want to get my hackles up, tell me exactly what I have to do and when, and how.

Rebecca
Yeah, that’s my voice. This advice when like, teachers have a hard time with this, or some sort of like, admin mandate is like, Okay, well, how required is required? Let’s be like, straight up, you know, is it truly required? Like you’ll lose your job if you don’t do it? Or is there some gray there? Because that’s I agree, I find the best way a PLC works is if it is just more sharing the ideas, seeing what works out the ideas, but no, like, keeping it all together so hard.

Zach
Yes. Well, and again, it’s like the universe has told us it’s a ridiculous plan. And also, good teaching practices have told us it’s a really good plan. I think I like what you said, and it took me a while, as I was writing this out, I was kind of trying to rationalize, like, PLCs. And I’ll have I’ll ask you a question about it in a minute. But I think one of the greatest things that has occurred in our PLC is when we get a new person in there. And it’s like, here is kind of this day syllabus that I laid out as a joke in 2007. And it doesn’t matter, you can be a month behind, you can be a month forward, this is a skeleton of the things that should ideally would be covered. You may not get to it all. So I think what you said is exactly true. Which is like this is I wouldn’t even call it a skeleton because the skeleton is too rigid, like, this is a territory. And you need to meander around, probably within its boundaries, but you’ve got a lot of leeway. So but I so I’m going to ask you this, and I was trying to think about like, why wouldn’t appeal See, be super useful? would if you had a bunch of people who had been in the same school for a long time,

Rebecca
I do think that would be a lot harder, because I was gonna say I was thinking back to our PLC, and we had a couple people that had been there forever. But of the five or six that were always teaching biology, at least two were like new people, right? There was always kind of fresh blood. That’s where I do think having good admin makes a difference. Because one of the questions was like, you know, what do you do if like, you want to do what’s best for your students, but like other people don’t agree with you? And do you have like flexibility there do its best, that’s where I feel like good admin helps, because our good admin was kind of like, hey, they knew who they couldn’t change, basically, on the PLC. They’re like, present your ideas, throw some things out there, but the end of the day, like you do what’s best for your students, and hopefully, your admin are in tune enough. Right. But I do think that’s hard. You do have to have fresh blood. So fresh ideas.

Zach
Very good point. Yeah. Otherwise, like, you’ve ironed out all the wrinkles, and I know, so I don’t know if this is a push in years. But I feel like our PLCs they really just want us focusing on which students are failing and how we’re going to catch them up. Like that seems to be the big drive in education right now is not like, let’s be innovative, or let’s find ways to do things, it’s your PLC is time to discuss your kids who are failing and finding ways to get them caught up or get them remediated or whatever. And I think I double resent that then because again, I feel like a lot of that stuff for me personally, I take care of in house, right, you know, like and the semester last year, and maybe this is good advice for some people are not good advice. I had some kids who failed. And I’ll tell them like, hey, next semester, if you can get a C or higher, with no missing assignments, because that addresses the their inadequacies from this semester and second semester covers so much at first semester. I’ll give you the the D for first semester. And so I think that is something that has evolved from PLCs. When we started, like, I want to go back in time here, like, for the longest time, there was no such thing as a quiz retake or the idea of any of that stuff, and so 2007 ish when it’s like, All right, one of the things we’re going to be doing is quiz retail So the kids have a chance or whatever or retakes on whatever. And I can tell you that I was working with an old dog at the time Jean Toth. You may remember Mr. Toth? Yeah. What impressed me about him was that even though he was a cyborg, which was a compliment, he was somehow flexible. Like, if he needed to teach a different class, it was just like, boom, he’d teach for space or whatever, right? Or he’s like, Okay, let’s do it. And I don’t know how or why that was because he was literally a robot. In my head, I have to tell myself, there needs to be changed. Sometimes, it’s hard to work out of your comfort zone outside your comfort zone. That is what is required for growth. I’d like I said, I kind of feel like I’m doing my own growth as fast as I can. I need other people’s growth too. But seeing him do that, in the PLC, I think was a change for me, you know what I’m saying? So yeah, the benefit of the PLC might be seeing an older teacher adapting. Or in again, this is how to tiptoe around in a PLC. I like what you said, which is, especially the new teachers or the medium teachers can bring new stuff, it is going to be most effective. If it isn’t, we are going to do this. But it is here’s some stuff available. And then if it comes up, do you have any resources? So I may not just dump them out there. But if somebody is like, has anybody got something for blah, blah, blah, and then I’m like, let me just open up my set of encyclopedias of content that I have invented. Here you go. No, I

Rebecca
think that’s super helpful. Because I a lot of the questions, I got so many of the same question of like, I’m a new teacher, I have all these ideas. No one listens to me kind of thing. But I feel like when someone brings a new idea to a PLC, and it’s like, fully, maybe it doesn’t be fully flushed, then. But if you want to try something new, and you’ve done the back work, most people will try something if you’re handing them something ready. But like, if you’re exhausted, and you’ve had five, perhaps even teaching 20 years, and like, you may not be like, alright, let’s like totally reinvent the wheel, like you said from the beginning. But you would be willing to try something totally done and ready to go. And so that’s where I’d be like, I feel like my husband to you. So work for a nonprofit for like, a decade and young life, or is that what he’s doing? He was doing young life he’s not doing anymore. But like, there was a lot of people who had a lot of ideas, but didn’t want to, like, do anything to fulfill them and write or like help. And it’s like, okay, well, if you have an idea, let’s like flesh it out, you take the reins on it, right? And I’ll be more willing to like hop in your carriage. And like following you on this. Were you were

Zach
you describing I had been inventing ideas and letting someone else do the grunt.

Rebecca
Exactly, yeah. And so that’s my best advice and a PLC for those newer teachers who are like, I have all these things, but no one will listen to me, it’s like, Well, are you just throwing out ideas and expecting other people to figure out how to execute them or you also bring out the execution.

Zach
I like that. And so I will say that while I am very resistant to changing the things I’ve done, which is a flaw in me, and we discussed that in Episode 35, like, I want to do things the way I want to do them, and I will invent them from scratch so that they will be that way, right. And it’s really hard for me to use other people’s resources for that reason. And that’s a huge flaw in me. And I think that that’s a trap that new teachers can avoid. So that is very important. But especially this year, like there are some things where it’s like there’s some alien periodic table or whatever activity, and it’s got a bunch of figures with like different hair and different body shapes and different fingers up. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one. And it was like, you know, they’re doing this, in the PLC, they’ve already got something in Canvas, so I can just copy it over to my class, I’m out for a day, they can work on it while I’m gone. It has meaning. And I think that that’s nice, which is it really shows that periods on the periodic table have something in common. And that’s your goal with these little stick figures. groups on the periodic table have things in common. But there are changes. So in that respect, it’s like it’s a good activity, I would never have decided to do it. But it existed from the PLC, and it existed, like you said, someone else had done it. And it was like, okay, I can try and implement this. So, yes,

Rebecca
I like to what you said about the combating the negative attitudes and saying positive appeal every negative of like, setting the schedule. And maybe there’s like a five minute period where it’s like, get it off your chest. And then there’s a timer that goes off and is like, and we’re done. Nope, you’re done. Right. So moving on in the agenda?

Zach
Yeah, it’s tough. Let me tell you as like so I spent a fair bit of time thinking about this, because as you may recall, I’m the problem. But I think that this may be one of our best chances for this. Which is I was like, if I’m going to sit in a meeting and a new teacher is going to be like, Okay, moving on, or whatever. I would wrap my fingers around their throat and throttle them. You know, I mean, it’s like, Look perky. vac the hell off. Who are you to tell me you’re gonna take control the meeting, because you don’t want to talk about this. You know what I mean? So I know You’re, you’re perky. So it’s. So what I was doing in my head to rein myself in, as I was like, just picture Rebecca telling you that in a PLC,

Rebecca
and maybe it needs to be a more seasoned person is the keeper of the time.

Zach
I don’t know, like, I am not saying I would run these meetings. In fact, I want less and less to do with them.

Rebecca
Well, and that’s where I think the timers could help because everyone wants a shorter meeting. So maybe setting the timer should be motivating because it’s like, okay, this helps us move forward.

Zach
Right? How about this scenario, though? If administration is wanting us to focus our PLCs on remediation and closing gaps, how do we not rant the whole time? Because those are the kids who are driving us crazy anyway. Right. So like, here’s a trick, stay positive. Well, talking about all of the things that are frustrating you? I don’t know, man.

Rebecca
I know. I think it’s really, really hard. I think PLCs are hard working with other people. It’s hard. And as a teacher, it’s like, you already have to work with students. That’s the job. And then you have to work with their parents. And so then coworkers just feels like another like, thing,

Zach
right? And imagine, imagine this tidal wave of me. Okay, so by the way, I want to point out with that is like, and I again, we said this before, but there’s a certain level of broken, which is, I don’t necessarily take into consideration how competent people see me and I’m not bragging. But it is true that people look at me, and I think sometimes it’s intimidating, because it seems like I’ve got my stuff together. And it’s like, I’m on top of everything, and nothing fazes me. But like, I’m a frickin train wreck behind the scenes. And we had talked about like, the smoother something looks, the more somebody’s bleeding behind the scenes to make it go so smoothly. So I think that that’s one of the problems that comes across as just like sometimes people do get intimidated. And it’s like, meanwhile, I’m sitting in that PLC thinking, Oh, these guys are so much better than I am at this. And they’re so adaptable to change, and all this other stuff. So as an old person who isn’t so good at change, like maybe you new teachers just realize like it’s scary. Yeah, really crazy. And to some degree, it’s questioning, like the way we do things. Right. So

Rebecca
I think that’s a great advice just to consider, like, if you feel like the teachers don’t want to change, it’s like, well think about their perspective on this too.

Zach
Right? We’re already insecure. This is this is under attack, I feel attacked.

Rebecca
Well, it’s like you also remember teaching when it was a lot simpler. Like, I felt like when I was in your class, like emails, I guess happening. But like, I don’t even feel like email was really big thing when I was in high school. Right? Like, so much has changed. It’s so much more on your plate.

Zach
Absolutely. I mean, I think the transition like into the 2000s. And then it’s exponentially ramped up in terms of number of emails and expectations of like real time grades. And it’s just like, back in my day, you knew what your grade was when report cards came out. I didn’t have to talk to you about your grade in real time. I didn’t have to get an email from a parent about how hard a quiz was before the quiz was even over for some mysterious reason. But doesn’t that happen all the gosh darn time, right?

Rebecca
It’s so true. Yes. My favorite is like, yeah, when you give a test, and then it’s been one class period, and then someone comes out and have you grade that yet? I’m like, What do you think I’ve been doing the last hour I was teaching, or,

Zach
or the parent, what can they do? They don’t take the exam went, Well, what can they do to remediate it? Literally, like three minutes after the exam.

Rebecca
How many agree that he had let’s everyone stay calm,

Zach
haven’t even taken a breath, haven’t had time to blink. If I if I could have some time to blink, we could move on. Okay, so for PLC, I’m not trying to cut you off. But I don’t want to skip something you had said, which is something that was challenging for me to do. But I see the importance of, and it actually is kind of a little less work is using common unit assessments. So if I were more professional, it would be great to then compare data. But I can always tell my kids, everybody else is covering the same material and you are taking the same exams they are. Because it has always been a bone of contention that’s like, Oh, everybody in so and so’s classes getting an A that class is so much easier. So but when you can tell them, you’re taking the same tests, we are covering the same material, then that argument kind of goes away a bit.

Rebecca
Yeah, I would say because one of the questions was like, how do you build a PLC if you want to do it, but it doesn’t exist at your school? I would say start with tests, because like you said, I think it’s really hard to write a really good and fair test that really actually tests what the actual information is, and it’s equitable. And so I’m like, I feel like you need all the brains you can get on that. And then you have way more data points, if you know for teachers are using that test as opposed to just you to know what you need to change. I feel like starting with tests would be the best thing to start with. I agree. Oh, Okay, yeah, counterpoint,

Zach
what have you got 20 plus years, and you have ironed out some amazing tests. And I know you’re like, well share them with a PLC. I don’t think the PLC wants to deal with that format of tests. And I don’t feel that they should have to expect to, which is like, largely process based tests. So a lot of what I’m getting, I know that’s chemistry is process driven, right? Multiple Choice makes it really, really hard to make the process mean something, as opposed to the product. So the compromise I have for those tests kind of is like, there is multiple choice. And then there is a short answer section. And so like for my short answer sections, I try and pad it a bit more and make it a little bit longer. And maybe I’ll toss in some extra credit to kind of balance it out. But the the tests I have developed, they’re good, they’re vetted. You know what I mean? And they’re not tests that other people wouldn’t necessarily want to use. But like you said, it’s hard to develop a good test when you got one, or when you got 750 revisions. You know what I mean? So that’s hard.

Rebecca
Those are the best tests. I feel like I would start with the most veteran tests and then see how we, if we need to tweak any parts of it, but I agree, yeah, nobody wants to grade those. That’s why I grade basically, almost nothing else. Everything else I grade is almost just for effort or completion, because I want to have the time to grade a good test well, right.

Zach
And, you know, like, you got to I feel guilty, because blah, blah, blah, best practice, get them the tests back so they can have immediate feedback or whatever. And it’s like, Yes, and I feel guilty that they don’t get it back for a week or two. But that’s what it takes. And I know, I’m full transparency. I’ve got very detailed rubrics. And like, I have peer tutors who have taken the class doing that scoring, but it still takes them that long, you know, it takes an army of people. And then I skim through them. And you can always say like, oh, this is an area for improvement, or this class was this. So I don’t want like when I said that, I don’t want people to think I ignored that. And I’m just operating blindly. Again, some of that’s hyperbole, because, obviously, I have to be super neurotic about every single aspect. So believe me, I know, I don’t need you bringing it up in a PLC my inadequacies already thought about 700. You didn’t

Rebecca
DLCs are hard. Any? Do you have any other advice before we move on to admin? Or you mean PLC related? Yeah, or just coworker related.

Zach
Okay, so I think we hit the main things, but like, coworker issues, I’ve had some very challenging co workers. I have been that challenging coworker, I think, objectively speaking, but like, sometimes you get somebody who’s just straight off their rocker. And that happens. And it’s just somebody you have to tiptoe around, and it can kind of mess things up. So, in fact, some times people are just flat out. Not right. You know what I mean? And you can’t really do anything, because usually they’re pretty conscientious about making sure that they’re not doing anything totally wrong. And so the short answer is, and I think that this is going to be important is like, don’t sit and pitch about them to your co workers. Like do your own thing. Keep your nose to the grind, try to be objective in your dealings with them. Try to make sure you don’t get them angry in case they turn into they go postal. And I while I say that tongue in cheek, I think if they go off the rails, you don’t want them looking at you. So don’t perpetuate with other people, all the discussions, you can say like, if something comes up, I’m worried about or whatever. But don’t just sit there and negative, negative, negative, negative about it, have weighed it, try and focus on the positive do as I say not as I do. I think that’s great advice. And if you’re stuck with them in a PLC, you’re like a trapped animal under the glass. Again, you just got to tread lightly. And that’s part of life is sometimes there’s people you have to tread lightly around,

Rebecca
right? And I feel like then just do what you need to do in your classroom.

Zach
Right. And that’s what countless hours of therapy which is like focus your energy in the classroom where it matters. Focus your energy in the classroom, focus your energy, and it’s very hard. It is walking in seeing all the stained ceiling tiles and all the other shambles, and just focus your energy in the classroom. Yeah, I think that’s a good short answer on PLC brings suggestions. The best thing you can do with a PLC is have structure and time limits, and potentially ask for help. If you need it, bring things that other people aren’t forced to use. So the PLC should be 0%. Everybody has to do it this way. PLC can create a territory in which people operate. And sometimes you don’t get to things. And I think that’s the healthiest way to have a PLC PS thermodynamics, right. Like, the more you try and impose an improbable system on things, then the more energy it’s going to take and that energy is best spent elsewhere.

Rebecca
I love that. I think that’s a great summary. That’s great advice. Okay, so now SOC admin, you’d already mentioned a couple of things in the part one of this episode and we talked about parents, you had some great examples of admin that really, were awesome. So I would just love. Before I get to specific questions for my audience, just any wisdom stories experience, maybe review your tiers of admin, because that may help with the question of like, how does a teacher make the decision? I’ve had this one teacher I’ve been dialoguing with who’s going back and forth, just trying to decide like the admin just keep saying, You’re the problem. You’re the problem. You’re a new teacher, like, this is why XYZ is happening. But they’re just getting like, pummeled. And so they can’t decide like is I know, I’m probably part of the problem. But like, is this worth even staying? So how do you make that decision of like, if an admin is good enough that you need to leave?

Zach
So I felt like that was a really challenging question for me, because I’m someone who is very, very, very avoiding of change. So in my head, I’m like, I’m just terrified. But then I had to, like, come up with for that specific question. Some like, I think criteria. And I remember one is like, what point in your career? Are you like in terms of Do you have tenure yet? Or do you not? Or are you pondering hopping out of the career or are you not? So I think part of it is, how far into your career are you? Because I think the farther in you are, it might be harder to change, it would be harder for me, some people are really good at change. And that’s one of the things. The second thing I’d say is like yours at the school. And so I think that you had said somebody was like 20 years in or something they’ve been dealing with the less than satisfactory, see how he didn’t say crappy, less than satisfactory admin since like, 2005. Questions? Yeah, I was like, man, admin lifespan in positions is like five years. So having somebody for 18 years, that sucks, I can’t even imagine. Yeah. So geographical and emotional attachments to the school. So like, if you live right next door to the school, or if you really liked the people at the school, that’s going to make it harder to leave. So that’s something else you have to assess. And then flexibility, in terms of your own flexibility. Some people like you’ve already been at two schools. And you know, my palms are sweating, just mentioning like two schools. So actually, I’ve been to two schools, but one of them was, for two years, 20 years ago,

Rebecca
a good point to have encouragement for because like I’m thinking of the one person I was talking to, that is their first year of reminding them, at most admin are only at a school like five years, because then they get promoted, they want to be up in the district, or they want to VP they want to be the principal somewhere, right? That’s kind of an encouragement of like, it shouldn’t be forever, that I feel like that one situation, we’ll get to that one in a minute. Okay, good,

Zach
because I was like, except for that one. So I was like, that was gonna be my exact advices waited out, except on that was like 2005, which is where I put like, those items. And so the admin is one person in the building. So on one hand, it’s only one person. On the other hand, it’s one person who can change the atmosphere of the whole school. So that’s a balancing act of, yeah, it’s only one person, however, that one person can have a pretty big impact on the school. So if you are deciding whether or not you’re changed, depending on how long you’ve been there, if the admin is dug in, like a tick, right, and tanking the whole school, shop around, right? So if they are dug in there, and nobody’s digging them out, start chopping around as if they’re tanking the school. But if the admin is bad, and you really like everybody you work with, and you feel like they’re all doing a good job, and it’s healthy to be around them, then I think that that I would lean heavily in favor of try and wait them out, except for this situation where this admin has been there since 2005. I keep getting stuck on that. Because I’m like, Yeah, wait it out. And then you’ve got this specific

Rebecca
URL. So one of the specific questions for everyone listening was someone submitted that they had lost all respect for their admin who had been there since 2005. So they’re on your 18th, of working with this admin, and trying to figure out what to do. I felt like when I was thinking about the question, every school I’ve been at has multiple admin, and you may be assigned a VP for your grade or your department. But I had one once that was terrible, and I felt a lot closer, or like I had more aligned mental things with a different admin. So I just kind of like, befriended that other admin, and use them when I could when I needed support. It was like the freshman VP, yeah, wasn’t great. But the junior VP who was also on my whole, right, like, loved him. And so I just kind of was like, came under his wing and said, so that would be my advice is go for another admin for support. But what would you what do

Zach
you do? What do you what do you do if it’s the head admin? Yeah, like, if it’s if it’s the principal, it’s tough to avoid them. So here’s my advice on that. And I think, what advice do I have to someone who’s been teaching for that long? I think that they’ve probably worked out the ins and outs. I would say they’ve got a pretty big buy in at that school. I have seen shockingly, several teachers at that point in their career. And I can think of somebody in Lexington from another school who had been willing to move because of admin. I couldn’t do it. But I think if somebody has been at a school for 18 years or more, they might as well just stick it out because they know the waters and they know how to navigate them. And then they can just try and stay For radar for that administrator, I really like your idea about like, find some vice principal and grab hold on tight. But it’s it’s so fluid, you know, stick with your staff, and again, try and avoid negativity. And I’ll just toss this out there, which is, I am very negative. So do as I say not as I do, or at least I’m jaded. But we had a situation where we had a principal who made things look great from the outside. But the way you make things look great from the outside in this case, was to let the inmates run the asylum. So it seems like things are going smoothly, and you could feel the school was in decline. And I don’t know how you can make a school not be in decline. Once once you have started down the slope, that school I was in in Chicago doesn’t even exist anymore. Once a school is started going downhill, what happens is that the higher achieving students, the more involved students and the students who want that support, you know, the building and average things out, they’re the first ones to leave, because they have the means to do so. And then what happens is, the school just becomes a trap for the kids who can’t go anywhere. And then it’s a dumping ground. And I don’t know how you turn that around. And part of the problem was to the district we looked great. But that’s because numbers are fudged in a certain way, right. So that that is a tough one. And I felt a lot of my peers, especially long term peers, parted ways with the school like, retired earlier, whatever because of that, because you can feel it. And it is a physical force on your shoulders, especially when you’ve got into it, like 18 years of your life or whatever, for that person. That is so hard. So hard. And again, like what you said, focus your energy in your classroom. But it’s Ireland and

Rebecca
I use it, I would say I would try to stay under the radar as much as possible. And the nice thing about having taught 18 years is at least hopefully that teacher has enough of a reputation amongst students and parents, right? That it’s not going to be that situation that a new teacher has where a parent’s over, you know, over looking and going straight to admin type, right? Because that was our next question was how to deal with admin not taking your side when parents come angrily at you, which I, I can’t imagine I will never forget, I will say I made a negative comment about that one Vice Principal, a freshman that I had to work with. But I will never forget, a parent somehow made it through the front office and made it up to the to my classroom floor.

Zach
Impressive. I love it when they do that.

Rebecca
I know. And literally, by the grace of God, my vice principal who had done absolutely nothing for me that made my life harder saw a parent like rampaging through the halls, chase them into my classroom. Right? They sat down with us. And I will never forget, like that one moment was like, redeemed all other things just to be like, okay, they stepped in there when they were completely inadequate, and every other part of their job as an admin, but that was extremely like, I can’t imagine what was it one time you needed them? I mean, really, and we still laugh, like a couple of the teachers, because when we like relive this, everyone knew they still couldn’t believe I can’t say his name, obviously. But they’re like, I can’t believe that. He moved that quickly. And like came after you to help you. Like if he was one that would never respond to any correspondence, or really do much at all. So I was super grateful. I know. But so what do you say about that?

Zach
Well, I’m gonna go back a little bit, which is like, but a lot of it depends on what you need from an admin. And for me, even after 20 years, when I see an admin, I’m still like peeing my pants, even if it’s a vice principal, it’s like, because I’m, again internalizing this inadequacy. And it’s like, they are going to find things wrong with me, or they want to talk to me because they want to discuss something that I’m not doing right, which is a problem with me. It’s not a problem with other people. But I think it’s true in the day to day lives, like we see police and it’s the same way. So the first thing I’m going to declare is like, you need an admin who does that to some level, right? But for good reasons, right? Like, I am a little bit nervous because this person is objective. And they may find things that are wrong. Not this person is finding things wrong with me. So I think you can’t be too buddy, buddy. Because there needs to be a little there is a hierarchy and they are above you. Right? So there needs to be some amount of healthy fear and authority. Yeah, right. So what what do I need from an admin or what’s best case scenario for me is like, I never see you. You’re totally, I am totally off the radar. I was very pleased to hear you say that, which is like, I’m totally off the radar. They know I’m doing a good job. And they don’t have to step in. They don’t have to micromanage. So for me, that would be best case scenario for an admin. And then once in a while, they have to push me outside of my comfort zone by appearing or whatever or asking me questions. And when I say like, once in a while, I don’t mean all the time. Right? Right. So I think theoretically There shouldn’t be that much interaction with your admin because they should know what you’re doing and how, and that should be enough for them. They can like kind of set some guidelines and everything else. They’re they’re theoretically like the dam that is preventing the tidal wave of insanity, from washing into your class. So that’s why I said before, like, good admin, if it’s not something that should be on your radar, then you shouldn’t even know about it, they should be handling it. You know, Rebecca is a good teacher. I know this is not reasonable. So she doesn’t even need to know about this. She doesn’t need to burn a calorie. So and that’s, I think there’s a fine line. But you know what I’m saying? Well, that’s

Rebecca
where I think what you mentioned in the parenting one of like, tracking everything, tracking the facts, so that then you can bring it to an admin who may be if IT admins taking students sides over years, or parents sides over years, you can be like, listen, here’s the facts. Right? How do you want me to do this differently? Since I’m apparently doing it wrong? Right. And or be on my side? If you agree with what’s been happening here, then I need you on my team, you know,

Zach
so I don’t know if we can lightning round. But I’ll look at

Rebecca
it so hard. I feel like I’ve take deep breath. This is me too.

Zach
I will try and lightning around these. Because I’ve got three other horror stories. We had what I was a horror story in the last podcast. But I want to lightning round these because these were all within the past 10 years, or whatever we’ll say. And they were all absolutely shaken to the core types of situations. And I think that they could have been handled differently by admin. And that would have helped. So one of them was, and this I think, and I’ll start with this one, because it’s kind of the smallest. But one of our biggest things as a science teacher is for like, a kid to get hurt, or for it to be your fault. So I did the gummy bear demo with a flaming gummy bear, which produces a bunch of Yeah, yeah, potassium chloride with a gummy bear a jelly bean. I think we even mentioned that in the last podcast. But the next day, I got an email from a parent that was like, Oh, my daughter says she’s got her lungs hurt after class and like, her throat and lungs are still sore today. And you walk into that, and it’s just like your stomach drops. So here’s some advice in that situation. Never say it’s your fault. And like, sometimes it is your fault. So. So I was like, I’m sorry to hear that your daughter feels that way. I think that everything that was done was appropriately safety conscious. This is what was in the air at that point in time. This is where she was located. And this is how it was. I don’t think it was likely a factor. But if you would like me to fill out the paperwork, the incident report for the district we can. And so I think the response was like, let’s just wait and see. And so the next day, he’s like, this is still the case. And so he was outright stating your class, cause this your demonstration cause this and again, I was not. And I said, All right. Well, I’m sorry to hear you feel that way. We’ll fill that out. So I contacted the principal secretary, and she had no idea what to do, because it’s never happened. You know what I mean? So then we had to figure out what the district like what we had to do like what paperwork had to be filled out or whatever. And it was basically like, this kid was like 35 feet from this experiment that’s just putting like sugar or burnt sugar in the air. And I had the window open right behind her, but she had closed it because she was cold. And there’s no way this is my fault and blah, blah, blah. I didn’t say those words. But as a sight, it’s like very improbable, I can’t see. So if your stomach is dropping, hearing this, I heard nothing for like two days or whatever. And finally, I saw the principal. And I was like, What’s going on with this? Because you know, there’s no sleep for me. Of course, like this kid’s dad was a lawyer, too. I didn’t mention that part. So I knew after the first email, I looked it up or whatever. And I was like, This dude’s trying to get me as a lawyer. So anyway, and the principal’s like, Oh, yeah. We forwarded to the district they contact the parent said there was no merit to it. Parent was insistent they had them take their kid to the doctor and paid for like the copay or something. And there’s, there’s no merit. And I was like you couldn’t tell me. So that was a Friday. And I was like, you couldn’t tell me that like Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. So here is where I feel I need from the administration. You’re fine. You’re fine. not silent. I don’t really like what you just said. You don’t want to hear from the administration? No, I think it’s important that if someone is making accusations, yeah, hear from them. So that was a administrative ball dropped and the problem is repeated administrative ball dropped from this administrator. And so that was probably the most recent same administrator. This is by the way, I had said like this tear of parents, which is like, legit, high maintenance, just plain high maintenance. And so sociopath I maintenance here is a sociopath, high maintenance thing. So it’s girls in my class, and she’s very talented athlete. And she’s got a very difficult practice schedule, and trains every day after school, an hour and a halfway, which is like craziness in and of itself. And so she’s not doing that well in my class, and the parents are upset. And so like, I’m like, hey, you know, could come in for help? Nope. Can’t because of practice? Or, you know, here’s some other suggestions. No, no, those aren’t really options. And these are the parents who aren’t like, Oh, could we meet? It’s, we’re going to have a parent meeting on Tuesday, what time are you available? You know what I mean? And so they come in, and I didn’t even know like, the level of energy these parents have see is a crazy. So like, we’re sitting in this meeting. And it’s like, they just keep asking, you know, what, what is going on? What is going on? And I’m like, I don’t know. I like her. I think she could do better. And I’m glad I said those words, because it was true, because then they didn’t really have anything when they decided to jump the hierarchy. You know what I mean? It’s like, it is not that this guy is blowing us off. This guy has given us time. And he he is saying he wishes she could do better, and thinks you can do better. And one of the things and again, chaos at home. All right, this dad had been working out of Florida for a while. And so all of a sudden, this girl’s grades have changed. And it’s like, well, you know, there’s some chaos at home and the dad’s like, well, I’m moving back. So that means that’ll be over. And it’s just like, it takes time. Because anyway, I’m trying to speed this up. But it was such a devastating situation. So of course, they go to the admin meeting with you, what, like two weeks later, because they’re like, I’m a dead end, because I want to help her to, you know what I mean? They can’t blame me. So they just skipped me and go to admin. He’s like, Oh, yeah. What’s this situation with so and so? And so then, of course, they like declare they want a meeting with him. So I was kind of out of the picture at this point, and the ball was in his court. And so then he reports back to me at some point, he’s like, Yeah, well, we decided that they would send your materials out for audit, syllabus and exams, and blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, what? An audit to who? I don’t know, you know what I mean, but it’s this is, this is the type of energy some parents have. And so I feel like an administrator should have said, yeah, the students been doing it so long. We’ve never had a single complaint, because everything’s legit. But instead, he’s like, yes. I’ll have him give you his materials. So you can have them audited for appropriateness and difficulty level and everything else. Then I heard it was radio silence for literally like three months. And I checked in with him once or twice. And he’s like, yeah, and he had told me several times, he’s like, these, these parents are known to be very high maintenance. He’s like, one of the things that I like to do is just let people spin their wheels for a while and use up their energy. Well, meanwhile, I’m just sitting in limbo while I’m waiting for my materials to be audited. Right, and at no point did He say, Hey, you’re fine. Like, Hey, I know. We’re just humoring them. He just said, like, yeah, we’ll just wait and see when it comes back. And so that was like four months of absolute torture for me. And eventually, like, they brought the materials in and met with like, the Science Guy from the district and my department head. All of them were like, Yeah, this is fine. And so

Rebecca
let’s audit your child’s schedule now. Right. And I had to happen for there.

Zach
I know, that I had mentioned like, hey, you know, maybe part of it is she’s not able to put in the time she needs. They’re like, well, other kids are have very busy, busy schedules, and they’re doing whatever. And it’s just like, well, so she had gotten a B for semester. Which all of that energy because she was getting a B, and it wasn’t even like a high B. And the principal at some points like Yeah, well, at some point, you know, they kind of just admitted that they wanted to hire B. Because she wants to go to x prestigious school, and it needs it needs to look better. And I was like, all that energy for a higher B. Yeah, nightmare scenario. never should have gone down like that. When I talked about it with the principal after the fact. I was like, all I needed from you. Was your fine. I know you do what you’re supposed to do. Well, it never should have gotten to the point where he was like, yeah, why don’t you go have this material audited and agreed that that was not absolutely insane?

Rebecca
Yeah, that’s, that’s a bad admin move.

Zach
Yeah. And just let them spin their wheels. Who says that’s a good solution. That’s a good solution to you’re talking about obsessing? Alright, I got time for number three or no? Yeah. Same admin admin number three. So we had a teacher who had said, how do you deal with tough co workers, who was a tough co worker who was eventually removed from their position. And then we had like a string of long term subs, one of whom was a retired teacher from the district, who happened to have a name very similar to mine. So that I was not happy about that because this person wasn’t doing their job. And so I think that it was very easy for people to confuse their names. Well, he had a wife that had a lot of energy. And I have their son in class. This is a long term set. Right? Retired chemistry teacher who I was meeting, who I had like Hall duty with, and who I was meeting and PLCs with, and who I always kept to date up to date on everything in the kids getting to be. And then the mom just starts emailing me and attacking me and attacking me. And at some point, I said to him, I was like, Look, you know, I’m doing my job. I’m doing everything I can to help your son. Is he gonna be? Can you please talk to her? Well, within like five minutes, like an email from the principal this like, I need you to come down, because so and so’s here. And they, they want a meeting. And I sat in that meeting, and he left that meeting drag on for I don’t know, so he let them have an immediate meeting, which I think is wrong. And he let that meeting go on for more than an hour. And in that meeting, like just, My blood is boiling, saying this. I sat in there with that kid. And that mom and that dad, the dad didn’t say a word. The mom just ranted about my lack of professionalism and how grades and I was like, it’s just the numbers like the numbers are what they are. And she’s like, that’s part of what’s wrong. Is this like holistic approach? And my students? So she was a teacher too, saying you’re not professional, you’re not adequate. And the principal every once in a while be like, Well, do you think Mr. Matson did anything unethical? Or whatever? And the answer was, of course, no. And the first time the parents said, No, the meeting should have been over, right. But I’m just sitting there taking this abuse. And he’s not saying anything in my defense, nor is this guy who I have worked with for X number of years. Yeah, he’s also a teacher, who literally I’ve worked directly with and not saying one word in my defense. That never should have happened that way. And so I had talked to this principal about these consulter times, and he’s like, oh, yeah, the mom has a reputation in the district for bullying and getting what she wants. And he said this all the time. He’s like, every school. And so he should have known, but he didn’t want to stand his ground, because that takes work. You know what I mean? That would take some energy, and he just wanted her to run out of energy. So that was handled poorly, because that’s a situation where it shouldn’t even been on my radar, it should have been like, Hey, you’re doing everything you need to I’ll take care of it. I know you do what you’re supposed to, I’ll take care of it, as opposed to just making me miserable, sitting, feeling inadequate, which is my own problem. But like, this is, you know, hitting that string that is most sensitive for me. But I will say this positive about that meeting, man. At the end, our principals like stood a kid, hey, you know, what, what have you gotten out of all this? And the kid said, If my mom keeps stepping in and interfering with my grades, then I’m not gonna learn anything. I have never thought to myself

Rebecca
pretty insightful. Also, I can’t it’s always like, the irony of all this is that it’s all over a B.

Zach
I know both of those cases.

Rebecca
So what do we do then for? Like, I’m a new teacher, I’m interviewing for a job like how, what kind of, you know, and then are you they’re always like, Do you have any questions? For me? It’s like, what can I ask it to kind of assess the school culture? So that I can know what that’s going to be like? before? I I think especially right now, I feel like at least where I live high school science teachers are in insane demand. So you can be a little bit choosy.

Zach
Right? So I think it’s probably kind of tough in a meeting to get a feel except for so I had to come up with some of these. I was like, what should they look for? Number one, is the admin giving you their attention? So are they on their phone, checking their email, or whatever? Or is the walkie talkie turned off, and they’re talking to you? So I realize there are extenuating circumstances, but Right, but they shouldn’t be on their phone. And I know now it’s like standard to have your laptop open or whatever, but screw that. Ideally, they wouldn’t, because they should be giving you their attention. And you know, they’re multitasking when that laptops open, I think it’s important to consider how long they’ve been there. And that could be good or bad. I don’t really know what’s a better scenario. But probably longer is better. But it longer could be worse. So you gotta watch for that. And one thing that I thought of and I was very proud of myself is like, have them take you on a tour of the building them so that you can see how students react when they see them how teachers can react with when they see them, and how they interact with the students and teachers as they go. I don’t know how you like leverage that, as far as

Rebecca
I’m thinking of all the job interviews I’ve had. And I think like 80% of them that just naturally happened. They just took me on a tour. And so I think that’s very helpful.

Zach
But I think that it’s reasonable for them to pawn you off on somebody else because they’ve got other things to do, or a lot of interviews are after School’s out or whatever. But I think that would be a great way to put your finger on the pulse of that school is to see how everyone reacts to the principal when they see them in the wild. Yeah,

Rebecca
I think but I

Zach
don’t know how you could say to them, I want you to give me two.

Rebecca
Yeah. I think that’s great, though. And and and even as if you’re scheduling the interview, trying to make sure it’s during school hours. Yeah. Unless you’re able to, like have that flexibility.

Zach
What other things do you think in an interview you’d look for?

Rebecca
The other thing I will say it helped me to try to see because on this tours, oftentimes they’ll like, introduce you to someone or whatever. Right. And I would try to reach out to them after, like, if I could, if I like met, you know, so and so and the science department, find their email and see, I think you can learn so much from another teacher at the school cultures like,

Zach
I think if you pick the right person they could give you man, I don’t know how you pick that right person? That’s yeah, I agree. Well, luckily, you could do a little Covert Social Media stalking, probably. And don’t worry.

Rebecca
You’re watching The time for me? Well, I think to like, and maybe even I want to your opinion, do you think this is not professional? But I wonder if you are a more experienced teacher? And okay, another job? Could you ask an admin an interview? Because they always ask you, if you have any questions, say, hey, like, this is a situation that wasn’t in the past, I would love to know, as an admin, how you would have handled it and give like a very sustained, like PG version of a situation, or do you think that’s pushing it too hard?

Zach
I think that’s freaking brilliant. Because like you said, I think science teachers have leveraged right now, which is, they need us more than we need them.

Rebecca
Yeah, they can’t like finding long term subs to fill science positions is borderline impossible.

Zach
Right, let alone filling a full time science ration. I think that that’s awesome leverage, which is like, you know, especially if they ask why did you leave your old job or whatever? That’s something they asked. I’m laughing because it’s like, none of your damn business. Yeah.

Rebecca
That’s important. Yeah. And

Zach
other things, like I’ve said in a couple of interviews, although generally, I don’t, as you know, because my interpersonal skills are somewhat questionable. And they don’t want to be scaring anybody off. But I always think it’s interesting when somebody knows stuff about the school, if they’ve like, done a little bit of research, like the age of the school, and like the history of the school, or the demographics, if they can sneak in some of that crap, I don’t really have good. Other advice for job interviewing, you’re a lot more savvy on that. But man, if you could get that principal to walk you around during the school day, you’ll

Rebecca
get the best tip. Okay, so other specific questions from my audience, I want to make sure we hit these two also, how do you deal with admin or students or parents or co workers or whatever, who expect that you work and answer them late at night, or on the weekends or over school breaks, like one of my mantras on this podcast is like, do not have your email on your phone, only check it once or twice a day and have your set time like I think we’ve talked about before. I can’t check it in the morning before school, because it just puts me in a bad mood the whole school day. So I like there have been times where I’ve been like, Okay, I’ll do I’ll do like a 30 minute check. And then I’ll finish later, or I’ll save it. But like having a time setting boundaries. Like how do you do that though, if they just expect you will important things in the middle of the day in an email, and they’re like, and you didn’t see it, and you’re like, sorry, I didn’t check because I was doing my job. Like, right

Zach
off. And that’s, that’s a super hot button for me is, yeah, make your personal space. But we’re gonna send out all the announcements of the week on Sunday night. And since I have email PTSD, again, like I said in the episode 35, like, don’t check your email when you’re at home, because it can ruin a weekend or it can ruin a break, especially like now that I know that you resonate with that because you obsess about these things. And there’s no way. So I have put a note somewhere. But I think that one of the big things I would suggest is don’t create that expectation. So what I mean by that is for parents, don’t answer them during the school day. If you can’t do it before school, answer all of your emails after school and don’t answer anything, again, till after school the next day, unless it’s like an emergency. So if you don’t set that expectation, then they don’t have it and make it known. Like, let your kids know, like, Hey, if you send an email, I don’t I don’t respond emails, when I’m outside of the building, I’ll get back to it. And I can write. So I think I totally

Rebecca
train students and parents that way, like I trained 100%, I don’t want you if you’re emailing me at 7pm about the assignment tomorrow, like I will not see it. And I’m expecting you to figure out the solution. I’ve given you enough resources to figure out when the due date is or whatever, you know. So I think that’s good. But what do you do about the admin who are like, you have to keep your notifications on to your email during the day, like, where they want you to be teaching, and then have the notification bubble pop up, and you click open it. That feels insane to me, but I feel like a lot of teachers sent something like that in.

Zach
Right. Well, I think that’s something as a staff that kind of need to make clear, which is like, it’s tough, because like, as I said, like, I’m an old dog transitioning and it’s like, well, they used to come. Direct intercom was in the room, the right speaker. Sometimes the come over the announcement by teachers check your email, and well, that’s kind of an interruption of the school day. Maybe they should save those important things. Like an important email. It’s not important enough if they’re not, it’s not important enough to interrupt the whole school day. Right wasn’t really that important if they’re not willing to do that. I think that it has to be a school atmosphere. We’ve got this thing called the faculty advisory committee, which is kind of like a suggestion box and then there’s a committee that meets Have administration and goes over these things? So at our school, I would put in a fact request. And it was like, hey, like we’re trying to prioritize our kids and our classroom. If it’s an emergency, can you let us know by means other than email? Because sometimes email can be distracting. And so like a lot of times now, because I’ll have my Chromebook up in front, like, I’ll tell the kids, it’s like, look, I’m closing my Chromebook, like, this is too distracting. And it’s not fair to them, when I’m looking at it every five minutes. And so like, then it comes full circle to how do you communicate that to the admin? I don’t think one person is going to change an admin. But if you could get like a staff consensus, if it’s an emergency, tell us and if it’s not an emergency,

Rebecca
yeah, I would bring it up with your department chair, your VP like, yeah. Then say, like,

Zach
hierarchy, you

Rebecca
say, Yeah, that would be smart. And one of the things I think is so great about being a science teacher is we can always pull the like, it’s a safety concern for me TV and lab. And are you expecting me to be on my computer? The distraction? Like you said, Let me focus on the students and their safety, because maybe I would have noticed that that random girl closed the window, because she was cold. But I was too busy checking your emergency email?

Zach
Yeah, it’s tough to because I understand they want to get these weekly email out. So it’s tough. That’s something I’m having trouble adapting to? Because I want to stand my ground on unplugging my phone from the school in always possible.

Rebecca
Yeah, I would say then, if it’s a Sunday email, I would just try to get there extra early on Monday, to build in the time.

Zach
Problem is when it’s like, oh, Jean day tomorrow, and I get there and I’m in a three piece suit. I don’t know.

Rebecca
I would love to see a three piece suit on Jean day. I

Zach
know. I know. Okay. Do you want a lightning round? Your remaining stuff? Or no?

Rebecca
Yeah. So last few working at a school six science teachers to or in like the Freshman Academy to our 20 year vets. One’s a rotating position. And then there’s me. So this person just feels like they’re in a battle, like trying to work with all these different people. And they’re trying to try new things. But then the other teachers are just wanting to do lecture worksheet quiz repeat. Right? Right. But they love the people like personally. So they’re just kind of like, what do I do? We just Well,

Zach
again, lightning round, I’m trying, yeah, keep your energy in your classroom, I don’t think it’s right for you to try to pressure put pressure on people to do other things. So like, these are theoretically PLC people, let them do their own thing. Tell them how you’re doing your thing. And if they’re interested, they will let you know. And if not do what you think is best for your students in your room. Nobody’s going to fault you for that. As long as your PLC is not some stupid militant. Everybody has to go. That’s a ridiculous scenario. But if it’s like, hey, PLC, here’s some stuff I’m trying. No pressure, I just want to let you know, I agreed.

Rebecca
And if your admin comes at you, I would say just say, Hey, I presented these ideas. They were rejected. I’m going to do what’s best for my students, right? Know what else you want me to do here, and story.

Zach
And I think even a mediocre admin would be like, Okay, right. Exactly.

Rebecca
I agree to you. Okay. Anything else you want to share for new teachers that maybe you’ve thought of since our very first interview, because the very first one we did Episode 35, for those listening was specifically for new teachers. So I just want to say, after the fact you were like, Oh, I wish I had said this.

Zach
Yes. Well, so I want to harken back, remember, spoiler alert, stop taking things personally. That’s it.

Rebecca
Yeah, I think that’s great. It’s always so much less about you than you think. And I think the hard thing as teachers is we like have taken something that’s supposed to be our job, and it’s become our life. Right? And it just makes it all so personal. But like, again, I always say, It’s so insane to me that people expect us to respond to emails outside of the workday, when literally, I don’t expect my pediatrician to respond to emails, if it’s an emergency, I’m supposed to call 911. It says another pediatricians voicemail. That’s good. Yeah.

Zach
You know, yeah. So and again, don’t set that expectation. And but make clear your bounds on that. Yeah. 100%. And we could talk all day about this idea, which is like, we get mixed signals, because I have several kids who have been like, I can tell when they’re having problems. And it’s like, Hey, I’m worried about you. School is not your top priority. And then later on, these kids will be like, you know, that’s what I needed to hear at that time. Like, you’re the teacher who saved my life or whatever. How do you balance that with? You know, we’re not much a big part of people’s lives. I’d like that’s one that I have trouble reconciling, which is like, apparently, several times kid’s lives have been at stake.

Rebecca
Anyway, so just, I feel like all you can do is the next right thing. Right, in that moment. That’s, I don’t, that’s next right thing I can do and then move on. You know, too much wisdom for me. That’s your right. All right. Anything else you want to add for chemistry teachers specifically?

Zach
Yes. Do more labs.

Rebecca
Yes. Always. Always. Okay. Anything you’ve done in new in your classroom this year? Because when we talked it’s been like I think almost a year since we last talked to anything done. Are you stopped doing that, sir? Well,

Zach
I said earlier about the the cutoff and closing dates and taking work off. So I think that that’s a big one. And then I want to highlight something that you had said earlier which is that absolutely true, which is positivity. And so I’ll tell my kids like, I want to assure them that I pick on them because I like them. And so the verbal abuse is out of love. But and I made it clear to him, that doesn’t make it right. But it’s coming from the right place. So that doesn’t make it right. But I do want you to know, it’s not because and, again, that stems from like, my wife always tells me like people can’t tell when you’re joking. So

Rebecca
I love it. Okay, anything else you want to add? Before the final final question?

Zach
Well, yes. So I just to tie in with it, it was the thing about we don’t have as big an impact on people’s lives as we think if your firm if you’re respectful. And if you’re kind, you won’t regret those interactions. And that’s what I guess I was trying to say before, if it is people’s lives on the line, you don’t have to regret those interactions, because you were fair, and you were respectful, and you communicated that you cared, right. So you’re at least on the positive side of whatever comes. And I know, that’s real grim to think but it’s reality.

Rebecca
So and I think it’s fair to say something I’ve had to learn is because I am so quick to defend. And we talked about in the last the first part of this episode last time, needing space, sometimes in those moments and those face to face conversations with students, I have to be like, I need to step away from this conversation. Right? We can circle back tomorrow. Like, I don’t want to say something I regret to you because I want to be kind to you. And I’m feeling not kind. And I think like showing yourself as a human is an important thing as a teacher.

Zach
I agree. You’re a human

Rebecca
insert all robots like cyborgs like TA, you know, me or me.

Zach
I’m just a robot trying to learn how people interact and go through the motions. So and then the last thing, and we’re actually no, so it ties into all that other stuff. We said, Don’t immediately respond to emails, if it’s something simple and quick. I mean, it’d be nice if you did, but why are you going to set that expectation? And then don’t immediately accommodate requests, like you had said this perfectly before? Which is like when you have this anxiety or this discomfort, your brain’s immediate responses? How can I minimize this? I don’t know how you said it was my anxiety Beggs action. There you go. Right. So like this person wants a meeting, I’m gonna get it out of the way today. Well, there may not be time today, and it may not be worth your energy to make that happen. And it may just be like bowing down to them. And I put literally like you aren’t without power, it’s empowering to realize that you don’t have to answer at the snap or the ring of a bell, it is not unreasonable to take some space, you deserve that space. So that my big change is trying to like not respond immediately to everything.

Rebecca
I think that’s a great way to simplify your life. It really helps. And you can have folders like in your email that’s like, so when you if you are like a 30 minute checker at the beginning of the day, like if you even see something from a certain person, like put it in there like answer this by the end of the day email versus like, take 24 hours folder right away, you can like circle back to them. But you’re still getting the inbox more empty, you know, and

Zach
nobody can complain, like respond within 24 hours, be professional, do your best to respond within 24 hours. Nobody should expect more than that. Okay, did your parents want to be heard? And they want to know where if it’s something that’s going to be long, just send a message? Hey, I don’t have time right now. I’m gonna take care of this response tomorrow morning with more detail.

Rebecca
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I never do that. And that’s so true. Like, just acknowledge it. So they don’t keep blowing you up. If you’re getting towards that 24 hours, but then say, well, they’re building

Zach
up their energy, because they don’t know that not knowing for me is really hard, and then not knowing for them as hard. Yeah, think of how many times you’ve been at the DMV, or someplace where they have to enter your information. And they’re just typing or the doctor’s office, typing in your insurance information. And they’re totally silent for like seven minutes. Now, I’ve kind of gotten in the habit, I’ll tell people like, I’m not ignoring you, or we’re waiting on this. Because I think that decreases some of the anxiety. And for a parent, if it’s like, Hey, this is a legit concern. I’ll I don’t have time to answer it right now. I’ll get back to you. I think that that helps deescalate to think that’s

Rebecca
great. All right. How can my listeners stay connected to you? That’s in chemistry,

Zach
maths and chemistry on YouTube. That’s a good one. My peer tutors have an shouldn’t say this Dave app, Hudson says. So like, sometimes they’ll put up quotes on Twitter, just literally at maths and says,

Rebecca
I don’t have Twitter, I might have to get it so I can see

Zach
the reason I have it. And I have the login so that I can go and delete things.

Rebecca
You’re like, please don’t forget that. This

Zach
is what I said. Right? Right. Well,

Rebecca
thank you for spending three hours of your day off. It was

Zach
three hours of my day. Seriously, I’m grateful. Yeah, no. As you know, you are always making me feel inadequate with your level of organization, and everybody should make use of your resources.

Rebecca
Thanks. That’s very kind of you to say. It’s a team effort. Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode and the second half of my conversation with Zack. I sincerely hope you found it helpful and encouraging for you. I will link his YouTube channel in the show notes, which can be found at it’s not rocket science classroom.com/episode 70 One. I hope you can see from this episode that I genuinely love having guests that helped to answer your questions. So as always, please don’t be shy and shooting me a DM on Instagram at it’s dot not dot rocket dot science and just letting me know if you have any questions that you want to hear answers to on the podcast or if you have any recommendations for guests on the podcast. I always love to hear from you. All right, teacher friends. That wraps up today’s episode. If you’re looking for an easy way to start simplifying your life as a secondary science teacher had to It’s not rocket science classroom.com/challenge to grab your classroom reset challenge. And guess what? It’s totally free. Thanks so much for tuning in and I’ll see you here next week. Until then, I’ll be cheering you on, teacher friend.